A Great Visit

[Jim Butler]

Hi All,

I wanted to let everyone know about a great "Altec Visit" I had on Monday. SelmerDave, who is also here in Brooklyn, graciously had me over to his apartment to listen to his DIY 20 cu ft MLTL cabs built to GM's specs mounted with 604E's. I brought along 4 or 5 Cd's of tunes I know well. Dave's got his cabs set up for nearfield listening and biamped with a pair of small tube amps. The crossover was a Rane 22.

The sound was, to my ears, drop dead gorgeous. I have lisented to 604's in 620 cabs for years. Even though I had to pull down the middle and kick up the low end a bit I always thought it would be hard to top their sound. Well, the MLTL's do so and by a wide margin.

The first thing I noticed is that the mids are totally free of grain. Theres none. And even though Dave insists they are rolling off down low, the 27hz tuning just blows away the 40 hz tuning of the 620 cab. Kick drums and base notes are in place and filling the sound field in ways that feel complete. Dave (a musician) said the low end notes have distinct "color". Couldn't agree more. I'll be planning on building a pair and had my tape measure with me for taking measurements.

Sure was a great couple of hours out of the normative work-a-day world. Good conversation, and fantastic sound. Hats off to Dave for building his monster cabs and getting them in his place (neither one a small feat in NYC). Living proof of when you gotta have good sound, you gotta have good sound.

Looking forward to hearing Dave playing here in the Apple too!

Nice bunch of folks, Altec.

[selmerdave]

Thanks for the kind words Jim, I certainly enjoyed your visit every bit as much. Jim is a great guy and we had some good Altec and hifi discussions. I can answer the photo question, we actually didn't take any pictures while he was here. Jim had intended to but when he pulled out his camera found no card inside. I told him I would take some pictures of the setup to send to him, and then discovered that the battery of my digital was dead. Anyway, the battery is now charged and I'll take some photos to post/send, but it's worth pointing out that it wasn't so practical to take photos while we were listening (short of a fisheye lens) as my room is "somewhat small" (7' x 9') and the nearfield listening is more out of necessity than anything although it does work out fine. Anyway, it was a pleasure to meet and talk with Jim, particularly as he has quite a bit of perspective listening to other Altec speakers, but also because he's a great guy and I think we share something in common in our artistic backgrounds (Jim is a sculptor and painter).

Thanks again Jim.

Dave

[BugC]

Hi Jim!

Would you happen to have some pictures of that audio session you had at SelmerDave's place? Would love to see them in this forum, if allowed. Thanks!

BugC

[selmerdave]

Well here are a couple of pictures, not sure if they're of much use but it shows the setup and the room.

Here's one of the speakers, essentially the same as what I originally posted although I have now turned the lower baffles around so the vent is at the floor, as GM has since told me it should have originally been done.



Here's the view from the listening chair, sorry this is a poor job of stitching together some photos as my lens was not wide enough



And here is what caught Jim by a bit of a surprise that is not clear from the other pictures, the speakers are on the long wall of a 9' x 7' room. This shot shows how far it is to the back wall, and fortunately includes a generous amount of clutter as you can all see I am somewhat spatially challenged.



It's amazing to me in some respects that this setup works in a room like that, but it does. Sure, far from perfect but it does put a smile on my face.

Dave

[selmerdave]

Well here are a couple of pictures, not sure if they're of much use but it shows the setup and the room.

Here's one of the speakers, essentially the same as what I originally posted although I have now turned the lower baffles around so the vent is at the floor, as GM has since told me it should have originally been done.



Here's the view from the listening chair, sorry this is a poor job of stitching together some photos as my lens was not wide enough



And here is what caught Jim by a bit of a surprise that is not clear from the other pictures, the speakers are on the long wall of a 9' x 7' room. This shot shows how far it is to the back wall, and fortunately includes a generous amount of clutter as you can all see I am somewhat spatially challenged.



It's amazing to me in some respects that this setup works in a room like that, but it does. Sure, far from perfect but it does put a smile on my face.

Dave

[BugC]

Hi Dave!

Wow, those are huge speakers! Six-footers I guess!... What damping material and how much did you use inside your cab? ... Am saving up for a pair of GPA 604s and build a similar one in the future. I like simple-looking but great sounding speakers. Thank you for the pictures. Your speakers are very very nice!

BugC

[GM]

FYI, with rare exception you should never insulate the end closest to the vent, especially with a MLTL as you have, so insulate the closed end of the 'pipe' (top in yours and most cases) and none at the open end (bottom in yours and most cases, aka 'terminus').

As for the rest, always damp the rear cover and one side at least behind/beside the driver and since this is such a large cab probably best to start with the back and one side completely covered at least down to below the driver with 1" acoustic fiberglass insulation or similar and add as required if it should have any hollow ringing to it. Note that any bracing other than dowels should be covered also.

Note too that while some TL, etc. designers use window braces, I don't recommend them, instead using offset vertical braces with some dowel 'X' bracing to tie all sides together to keep the cab from potentially 'breathing' along with a motor brace to support the driver.

GM

[selmerdave]

Oops, thanks GM.

Guess I'll be moving that bottom insulation to the top.

Dave

[selmerdave]

Hi Bug,

Thanks for the comments. When Jim was over we were discussing the insulation and I was trying to remember exactly what I did and am not sure I can. I definitely put insulation on the rear baffle, side to side and top to bottom, on at least one of the sides and on the floor of the cabinets. I know I didn't insulate the front baffle or the top, but what I can't remember is whether I did the opposite side or not. I know it sounds silly, one of these days I'll open up one of the front baffles and have a look inside to refresh my memory. I used 4" fiberglass for the insulation.

Yes, they are pretty tall, OD is 65-15/16" so not quite six feet but a good size none the less.

Dave

BTW Todd please feel free to remove my double post, it didn't seem my post was going through.

[selmerdave]

Thought I should update this thread.

Last week Jim Butler was kind enough to return the favour and have me over to his place for a listen to his Altec offerings. It was a great experience and a really fun time overall.

My first thought when I saw Jim's setup was that it reminded me of the cover shots from those '70's Altec catalogs, although his was in stereo of course. If I recall correctly, there were six sets of speakers, seven if you count the 620A cabinets that he's using as subs, and they were all *immaculate*. There were a few horn setups - Boleros, 19's and 14's with the MR horn for contrast, and then some direct radiator setups with Stonehenge I, II, and Model 6. It's fair to say that he's an Altec enthusiast.

I haven't really had the chance to compare so many different setups side by side before, and it was fascinating to me to hear how many ways things can sound great. While I enjoyed the smaller setups and each of their characteristics, I was definitely more drawn to the larger setups. Each of those really sounded quite different from the others, which I wasn't really prepared for, and each made a very strong case for "great sound".

I was surprised how different the Boleros, for example, sounded next to the M19's, despite similar componentry (811 horn, 15" LF). The M19's had a pristine quality to them, flawless imaging and clean sound, and just magical balance that sounded very, very right. The Boleros were quite different, rolled off somewhat in the highs (although in a way that didn't bother me in the slightest) and beautifully rounded and full in the mids, with the "fattest" tone colour of the sets he had there. The M14's had a different sound altogether, with distinctly broader soundstage and considerably better disappearing characteristics, to me sounding more like modern hifi but with the rich Altec tone quality. Jim says that is largely the effect of the CD horn. Anyway, I could be completely satisfied with the sound of any of those setups despite the differences and their differences with my 604's. To me it sort of knocks down the idea of the "ideal sound", I think there are a lot of varieties of good sound each valid in different ways.

For kicks Jim let me hear what it sounds like with "a couple watts". In my miniscule listening room with a low-powered setup and neighbors on the other side of the wall I haven't really heard a set of Altecs open up. Certainly impressive to say the least.

Seeing that last time pictures were requested, I am realizing that I neglected to bring my camera. Jim's setup is certainly worthy of some pics so I hope he'll oblige and take a couple to post.

I also enjoyed hearing about Jim's art projects, he had some fascinating and beautiful projects around in his studio and employs some very interesting techniques. Anyway, thanks again Jim for a great time.

Dave